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#410327 - September 09th 2010 9:27 am auxiliary batteries
1phill Offline
stranger

Registered: November 18th 2008 1:54 pm
Posts: 11
Loc: ohio
id like to have 2 batteries for a rear sound system
that operate independently for the starting battery
anyone have info and/or advise on this precedure
thanks
phill

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#416382 - October 09th 2010 2:16 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
relaxedvanner Offline
veteran

Registered: December 17th 2003 12:00 pm
Posts: 1804
Loc: Calgary Alberta. Canada
I know you would need an isolator and have the batteries in a sealed box vented to the outside to exhaust fumes while charging. You also require heavy gauge wire to do so . Hopefully someone with more knowledge will point you to in the right direction or a previous post that will explain more than i can.
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1991 Dodge Ram 250
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#416416 - October 09th 2010 10:30 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: relaxedvanner]
Starlord Offline
veteran

Registered: August 08th 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 2899
Loc: San Antonio, Tx.
One of the better ways is to use a manual Isolator. You can get them at a automotive stereo shop. It looks just like the old solenoids in cars except bigger. Has a hot wire in from battery, a ground wire, a remote go wire and a hot out to the batteries. Keeps the rear batteries from draining the main batteries and yet lets them charge when vehicle is running. You don't need to vent them if: A. You use Optima type batteries (I run two of the blue top marine style) or B. You get a couple of the dry cell from a automotive stereo shop. Make sure to run HEAVY duty fuses (such as the 150 amp type fuses you get at a stereo shop) at both points where you come off the battery and where the battery wire goes to the two auxilary batteries. I keep the Optimas under the rear couch/bed and that seems to work well. I used the automatic isolators like you can get at a rv shop or some auto parts stores and find that I like the manual one better (don't let the word manual through you, you don't have to do anything). Hope this helps you.
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2005 E350 Turbo Diesel, 1993 G20 350 Chevy
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#416418 - October 09th 2010 11:57 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: Starlord]
wrcsixeight Offline
veteran

Registered: April 30th 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 1868
Loc: San Diego
The easiest way to do it is by getting some AGM batteries. Optima's are AGM batteries. Optima batteries have very high cranking amps(CCA), and are very resistant to vibration, and pretty tolerant of abuse. But for their size they do not have much capacity(AH) amp hours. An AGM battery that is rectangular will yield just as much ( if not more)cranking amps but have 25 to 35% more capacity. All AGM batteries will have a higher cranking amp rating than any flooded battery of the same size. Generally flooded batteries will have about 5% more capacity than the AGM battery of the same size

Battery abuse is when you discharge them below 50% and do not recharge them fully or promptly. True deep cycle batteries are most tolerant of this abuse. The next most tolerant batteries are the dual purpose batteries. These will say marine/ trolling/ RV/ deep cycle on them. The least tolerant of abuse are starting batteries. These should not be discharged below 80% and will not last long if cycled deeply.

In you application I would recommend Odyssey batteries. Die Hard PLATINUM batteries are the same thing for 25% less $.

Now to isolate them, the easiest way is with a Continuous Duty Solenoid. They look like this:


Get one rated for at least 100 amps continuous. The 2 bigger bolts are for the battery Hot/Positive wires. One side goes to the engine battery, the other side goes to the auxilary batteries. The 2 smaller wires are for activating the solenoid. When these see 12 volts from a switched source, it connects the 2 bigger wires together, paralleling the batteries. Ideally you want to the switched source to be something that is hot only when the engine is running, rather than just the key turned to on or Accessory.

You can just hook the negative wires of the batteries together.

Now it should be said that everybody overestimates The alternator's ability to fully recharge a battery. A 130 amp alternator can only output that in a laboratory, when cold, at high rpm. On top of this, the vehicles stock wiring is only adequate to power the vehicles accessories, and recharge a slightly depleted starting battery.

So There are a couple things you can do, the last of which is a bigger better alternator.

First, the wiring between the solenoid and the auxiliary batteries is very important. It has to be at least 6 awg cable for okay charging. The thicker the better.

This wiring does little good if the Stock charging circuit is not upgraded as well. The easiest way to do this is to run another (fused) cable directly from the alternator(+) post to the Solenoid. You want to wire it to The side of the solenoid which connects to the engine battery.

Upgrading the hot wires is no good unless the ground wires are upgraded as well. The negative is shared by the whole chassis. The engine has a pretty thick ground cable from the battery.

What you can do is run a fat cable from the auxuiliary batteries to the alternator's (-) stud, or one of the bolts that attaches the alternator to the engine.

Once you have done the above steps, you are at the limit of the alternator's capability. The limiting factors at this stage are the voltage regulator, and the alternator itself, and any poor connections in any part the charging circuit.

If at higher RPM and the batteries are under 80% charged, and the voltage does not rise to the mid 14's. Your voltage regulator is not allowing the alternator to work as hard as it can. If the alternator is internally regulated, nothing you can do.

There are many other ways to have batteries isolated from the engine battery yet still charge when the engine is running.
IMO, this is the easiest, most effective, automatic way.

I myself use a true manual switch.



I have my batteries under the floor behind my driver's seat and the switch in the cabinet above them. I need 12 feet of cable (one way) to reach the engine battery. I need 11 feet of cable to reach the battery switch from the alternator.

When I added another 2 AWG cable from the alternator to the battery switch and another between battery and ground, my charging amps at higher RPM's increased about 120%.

My 130 amp alternator is only capable of 32 amps at idle speed, when hot.

If you want your batteries to last( for years), you must think of the alternator as only able to supplement what your stereo use. Even with an upgraded charging circuit/ system, 2 depleted batteries are going to require many hours of driving with engine rpms above 1800 to fully charge them.

Since this is not usually feasible, you should have a good 3 stage automatic battery charger, and plug it in when you get home. Have a convenient way to do this and you can get 5 years or more out of your batteries, and never have them let you down during an outing. If you don't, your looking at about 2 years.

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#470896 - May 31st 2011 12:15 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
I recently installed a solenoid to isolate my batteries when the engine isn't running and it seems to work great.
the only thing I am going to change is currently it is connected to the ignition, and I am going to move it to a dedicated toggle switch.
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#471327 - June 02nd 2011 4:43 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
maples01 Offline
pooh-bah

Registered: October 02nd 2002 12:00 pm
Posts: 3291
Loc: Maryville, TN
Offered to tournament fishermen is a new state of the are deep cycle charger setup to hook up your alternator to charge the batteries, it cycles so they get no more than 5 minutes of the high amperage from the alt, keeping the plates from heating up, and allowing a few minutes to cool before re-engaging. I read about it in a fishing magazine, for tournament fishermen who'll not have access to a charger, even has a lead that plugs into the truck to charge as you're driving to the lake. It ain't cheap, it's about $300 to start, even offer them with extra banks to charge multiple batteries. Seems boaters trying to shed weight in their boats are opting for smaller, lighter batteries, and this is allowing them to keep the batteries going by charging them as they move around the lake using the engine. The article was by a boater, not dealer, he said even in the windiest conditions he's not had to leave the lake or change his fishing characteristics, as the trolling motor holds up on the well charged batteries.
No battery likes constant heavy amperage, that's why the vehicle alt has a regulator but there is a lot of demand on them, electronics in todays vehicles, multiple batteries could be hard to keep up with, without over feeding them, could be a good idea for me. Sure would answer the call for those who want deep cycle batteries but keep the weight down, go with smaller ones and allow the engine to take care of them.
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#472788 - June 08th 2011 4:00 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Ken_Karnage Offline
stranger

Registered: May 12th 2011 12:30 am
Posts: 19
Loc: Upstate NY
I'm in the process of setting up a similar system. I have two deep cycle gel batteries mounted under the van in a custom box. Is there a way to setup a "reverse inverter" so I can simply plug into shore power when I get home, or would It be best to do a permanent mounted charge and wire that for shore power? I'm looking for ease of use, and am still in the beginning stages of the build, so mounting anything at this point is not a big deal.

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#472877 - June 09th 2011 2:50 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
maples01 Offline
pooh-bah

Registered: October 02nd 2002 12:00 pm
Posts: 3291
Loc: Maryville, TN
You'd need something like the campers have that charges the batteries and powers from the 110 source, I'm betting it's expensive.
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#472889 - June 09th 2011 9:12 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
River_Rat Offline
veteran

Registered: April 13th 2011 1:37 pm
Posts: 2182
Loc: blountstown FL.
These semi tricks have two big brass studs mounted on the frame under the hood so you dont have to take the battery box off if you need to charge or jump it off. And they have nice black and red boots to cover them when not in use. Drag cars use them to. Just mount them under the van somewhere that you can get to them easy to hook your charger to. And would come in handy if you needed to jump your own van off or someone else
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#472890 - June 09th 2011 9:15 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
wrcsixeight Offline
veteran

Registered: April 30th 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 1868
Loc: San Diego
Ken, The product you seek is called a converter in the RV world. It is designed to power all the 12 volt appliances when plugged in as well as charge the batteries.

Progressive dynamics, Iota and Paramode are just 3 makers of converters.

A place called best converter sells them all and has good customer service.

Are your batteries really GEL batteries, or AGM? Gel batteries require specific chargers because they will be damaged by 1 overcharge. Generally alternator voltage is too high for gel batteries and that makes their use in vehicles impractical.

AGM batteries are another story, and you are good to go if these are what you own.

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#472919 - June 09th 2011 12:34 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Ken_Karnage Offline
stranger

Registered: May 12th 2011 12:30 am
Posts: 19
Loc: Upstate NY
I'm pretty sure they are gel, but i'd have to look at them to be sure. I asked the guys at the interstate battery dealer what I was looking for, and what I was using them for and got what they hooked me up with. I'm not much on an electrical guy, so I've been relying heavily on the advice of others....hopefully I got the right ones smile

Both the inverter, and the brass studs sound like great ideas...I might do both for the sake of convenience in the event I need one and the other is not functioning.

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#472960 - June 09th 2011 5:23 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
frscke1 Offline
carpal tunnel

Registered: June 26th 2010 7:35 pm
Posts: 8303
Loc: San Diego California
Here's the original thread and alot of good ideas

http://vannin.com/threads/ubbthreads.php/topics/452427/1.html




this converter has a plug on it to recharge or run 120v at a camp site..

http://www.dcacpower.com/product/2500bc.html
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'92 CHEVY G30 454 BEAUVILLE EXT 146 WB




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#473624 - June 12th 2011 10:32 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
made my switch for my solenoid, now to install it!

_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473629 - June 12th 2011 10:35 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: Astro]
Lee7673 Offline
pooh-bah

Registered: July 26th 2009 3:08 pm
Posts: 4556
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: Astro
made my switch for my solenoid, not to install it!




NICE!
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#473672 - June 13th 2011 12:13 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Boot Offline

Captain Overkill



Registered: November 16th 2003 12:00 pm
Posts: 3116
Loc: Myrtle Beach, SC
How about a schematic, Dave?
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#473681 - June 13th 2011 1:22 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
maples01 Offline
pooh-bah

Registered: October 02nd 2002 12:00 pm
Posts: 3291
Loc: Maryville, TN
My solenoid is hooked to my ignition switch, but Ive thought about putting a switch on it, but scared I'd forget to turn it off, how'd you do the buzzer addition?
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#473726 - June 13th 2011 8:11 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
I'll post a schematic as soon as I can draw it correctly! lol

the buzzer was one I picked up from radio shack, you can get one like I did that pulses, or one that has a continuous buzz, etc.
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473758 - June 13th 2011 11:11 am Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
Here is my poor excuse for a schematic, but it is simple enough that I think you can follow it.. the top part with the 6 connections is the DPDT toggle switch.

what the relay is doing is changing which circuit is grounded based on the ignition switch. when the ignition is off, 87A is grounded, thereby closing the circuit for the buzzer/warning light, when the ignition is on, it switches to 87, which opens the warning circuit, and closes (grounds) the green light.




parts... (click on them for product info/page)
you need a Bosch 5 pin relay.. it has to have the 87A connector, the ones that come with fog lights don't normally have that pin.
I used this one, from Amazon.com


I used 2 LED lights from http://www.allelectronics.com,
and
I also used a DPDT toggle, this on is ON/ON, but ON/OFF will work, this was just cheaper.


the buzzer i got at radio shack,

you can install it in anything, i used an aluminum plate, which I will mount to my overhead console, and the safety cover for the toggle is optional, I liked it because it made it harder to accidentally turn on, and it looks cool :-) you can get those anywhere, even your local parts store most likely.





Edited by Astro (June 13th 2011 12:18 pm)
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473789 - June 13th 2011 12:11 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
also, this is the solenoid I used,
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473836 - June 13th 2011 3:12 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
and it's in

I plan on making a nicer mounting plate for it, this one was just the rough draft.
after the nats I am replacing the whole face piece for my overhead, and re-arranging it all, etc...
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473848 - June 13th 2011 3:51 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Lordmodelbuilder Offline

LOST SOUL


Registered: February 24th 2001 12:00 pm
Posts: 3050
Loc: Insane Asylum
Looks nice Stro! Did you just do all that so you could manually turn the solenoid on & off? Any reason for doing it like that other than not wanting to have the key on?
Also, do you have a fuse between the power source & your toggle switch? Thanks,Brad


Edited by Lordmodelbuilder (June 13th 2011 3:56 pm)

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#473850 - June 13th 2011 3:55 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
I didn't want it on the ignition because when I hit the starter, the batteries would equalize.. not good if the 2 in the back are flat....
I wanted a little more than just a toggle to close the circuit.. so I added the little alarm to remind me to turn it off when the engine isn't running, yet I can still use it to jump the front battery if need be.

plus it looks cool, lol
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473878 - June 13th 2011 4:43 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
of course, I get the thing all installed, and my voltage meter decides to act up.. it just keeps scrolling LO over and over... like it is stuck in it's test loop. can't get it to display voltage anymore.

bought a different one that will work better with my setup to replace it
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#473892 - June 13th 2011 5:13 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
wrcsixeight Offline
veteran

Registered: April 30th 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 1868
Loc: San Diego
I assume you are talking about a dash mounted voltmeter?

Did you put a regular multimeter on the aux battery terminals with the engine running.

I am actually helping a friend to install an aux battery on his '98 Astro. We welded up a battery tray big enough for a group 31 sears Die hard Platinum, and are going to weld that to the transmission support cross member.

I am trying to talk him into a manually switched solenoid, but he likes to argue just for arguements sake.

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#475323 - June 18th 2011 1:16 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
yes, it was just a simple LED voltage display. it fried somehow. no matter what I connect it to, it just runs through it's diagnostic screen over and over.

I ordered a new one, slightly nicer looking as well. hopefully it will be here this week and I can get it installed.

on a side note, if anyone wanted one of these and wasn't comfortable with the schematic, I could make it in a little box that you could mount wherever you wanted. could make it with either a pig tail, or screw terminals for where you connect power, ground, etc.
you could use this for anything, not just a solenoid.

cost would be some of the parts and shipping and a little for my time
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#475325 - June 18th 2011 1:21 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
Astro Offline




Registered: December 22nd 2000 12:00 pm
Posts: 3122
Loc: Dresden, Maine
I am thinking I may add another indicator light off of point 6 on the toggle... as a reminder to turn the system on when the engine is running. putting there puts it on ignition power, and the circuit for the light is broken when I close the circuit for the solenoid.
now I need an amber LED, lol
_________________________
90 Astro - "The Grey Ghost" - Haulin Ass, Not kids.
93 Safari - "Lunavan"

E-Z Vanners of Mass, Maine, NY, NJ, England and Finland!!


"No matter where you go, there you are."
"If you can't do something smart, Do something right"
"There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those who can't"

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#475326 - June 18th 2011 1:48 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
gopher Offline
member

Registered: April 08th 2009 1:30 am
Posts: 161
Loc: central ontario canada
get a plactic battery box to hold the #2 batt and a deep cycle as the #2 it discharges a lot slower then a cranking batt duse
_________________________
Hi im gopher i started vanning in 76 retiered form active runs if 97 live in ontario Alberta and BC so i know canadaian vaners all over canada and the US eneny one want to know how twisted i am ask Howerd doc MA from wa Wako from portland OR was vaning in the eastern US or Canada before 82

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#475328 - June 18th 2011 1:58 pm Re: auxiliary batteries [Re: 1phill]
CustomVan Offline
member

Registered: October 02nd 2007 10:42 am
Posts: 148
Loc: Pennsylvania
I'm going to have Dual battery kits at the NATS for around 100.00 .EVERYTHING YOU NEED (fuses at both ends, switching solonoid,battery box (large), Ground Wire , 20' of Hot wire and 5' ignition trigger wire with all necessary electricl connectors already installed where applicable) BUT the battery. Installation available at the NATS too! You gotta let me know , so i can make appointment for your install and so i bring enough kits for everyone! call 800-495-8267 (VANS)...can also ship ANYWHERE
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